WCC "on-line" Mentoring

Mentoring Activities for 2005

Hi Jody,

Thank you so much for the thoughful replies from you and your colleague. This whole issue has been tearing at me for a few years now, and I had pretty much given up on being able to have both a family and a research career. Realizing that I can have both has been a very liberating experience.

It was also encouraging to hear that lab safety is much better in industry, to

the point that I would actually be able to work while pregnant. Considering

your advice, I am going to pursue a postdoc with a professor here and also an industrial postdoc with a startup synthesis company in town. My husband and I are still hoping to start a family soon, but at least now I am doing what I love so it is not as big of a deal if it takes a while to get pregnant.

Thanks again for your advice - it has been a huge help and encouragement!

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Thanks for writing.

In today's job market, post-docs are a highly desirable and often a required experience. You might consider trying to secure an industrial position without a post-doc as this might allow you to 'pull' you husband in to your employer a couple years down the road. If you do pursue the post-doc, I would say that you don't necessarily need to leave the lab if you become pregnant. That would be your personal choice and in fact at so companies (Lilly and Lubrizol for example); their female scientists often stay in the lab throughout their pregnancy. In an industrial setting, the upmost precautions are taken in an organic lab to ensure that the hoods have strong air flow and

You could take respirator training as a further precaution. And you would never be ask to use a chemical you were not comfortable using. All that being said, since post-doc positions are only about 18 months, perhaps the best timing may be after the post-doc and once you secure full-time employment. Good benefits are what you are looking for!

Jody

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Hi Jody,

I found your bio online and thought you might be able to offer some advice on a career question I have. I will be graduating with my PhD in chemistry (organic) from the University of Illinois, and would like to pursue a career in industry. Right now, my husband has approximately 2 years of grad school left(in chemistry also), so I am thinking of pursuing an industrial postdoctoral position to fill this time gap. The point at which this gets complicated, though, is that we are hoping to have children soon. So, my question is: what happens if I take a postdoctoral position doing bench chemistry and find out a few months later that I am pregnant and can't work in lab anymore? Are my plans to have children something that I need to be forthcoming about in a job interview? I feel so lost not knowing how to balance my desire to pursue research and my desire to have children. Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated.

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Hello again.

Thank you so much for writing back. Your email was a big help. I am just starting to search as I won't be graduating until May 2006 but wanted to get a feel for my options. I like the sounds of your managering position.

Can one be hired directly as a manager or move quickly from the bench to the office? I would say it is good to start at the bench to get a feel for the company.

I was also wondering about hours. Is industry really a 9-5 job or should I just get used to the idea of working odd hours and weekends? I work from 7-4 and we can flex our time. No weekends! I do travel, but I work around this with my husband.

Do you have a family? Yes. I have been married for 13 years and have a 7 year old son.

Is it hard to find time for them? Yes/no. I would love to spend 24/7 with them, but I get home at 4:30 just in time for my son from school. My husband and I plan date nights to get out together!

What are the policies for pregnant women or does that depend on the company?Depends on the company. Lubrizol is very good 6 wks paid off and 3 months family leave. Currently one of our formulators is on maternity leave. Also there are policies in place that if you are working at the bench you don't have to expose yourself to chemicals during your term.

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"Kocsis, Jody" <JAKO@Lubrizol.com> wrote:

projects involving motor oil additives. I evaluate PCMO new components for the Engine Oil Product Development Group and contribute new ideas and technology for future motor oil upgrades. As a technology manager, I develop structure-performance fundamental knowledge of components in regards to engine design. I lead teams having members form different R&D departments (Chemical Synthesis, Engine Test Lab, Pilot Plant, manufacturing, etc). I make recommendations which impact the motor oil business with our oil marketers and OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturers).

I have been with Lubrizol 16 years of which 11 were spent on the bench developing new detergents for motor oils. I then was promoted to an engine oil formulator. I formulate various additives: detergents, dispersants, antifoam, antiwear additives, friction modifiers, etc. Based on the combination of the type of additives, you can achieve different performances. Our Engine Oil Product Development Group has 15 chemists of which come from various educational backgrounds and cultures. For a formulating career, it is a must you have a chemistry background, good communication skills, a leader and able to multitask! I thoroughly enjoy my work and the people I work with. You probably ask, why or how did I choose this career? Well, since I started from the bench, I could take a look at Lubrizol's product lines and make a decision on where I wanted to go in the company, be it marketing, R&D management, formulating, etc. Several companies have "formulating" position, one that is most popular is the personal care industry (P&G comes to mind).

One of the sources I used in trying to determine what I wanted to do after my education was annual reports. They tend to give you a flavor of what a company does and its culture.

Jody Kocsis

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Dear Ms. Kocsis,

I am a graduate student at Emory University in Atlanta, GA, and recently returned from the national ACS meeting in San Diego. While there, I was fortunate enough to attend the "Women in Industry" breakfast which opened my eyes to a large number of opportunites for myself. I saw from the WCC website that you are a mentor and I was hoping to ask you for some advice. First, I am going to be graduating in May 2006 and have begun looking at job prospects. I saw that you do something with 'formulation'. I am interested in this area as I am not a straight synthetic organic chemist but can't seem to find anyone who works in the area or who can give me a better understanding of the job. Also, do you know of anywhere that I can go to look at chemical job descriptions? I know ACS has a job site which is helpful but not enough. Thanks for your time, I look forward to hearing from you.

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I did a postdoc for one year for fun and a chance to move cross country in a nonpermanent way. I worked at Colorado State University. The pay was not as high as an industrial position would be but the experience was one that is worth considering! Also, it is completely temporary so you don't need to worry about having to leave after 1-2 years, they understand and anticipate this. Your professor should/will go to bat for you to place you in a good position upon departure because this reflects on them as well. I found that this one year experience did seem to open a lot more doors for me when it came time to apply for industrial positions.

As for the timing of children, waiting until after 30 is great, but I can understand not wanting to wait too. I say 'Hells bells, if you want kids, just have them and fit them in. It'll work itself out in the end.' And working in the lab, I don't see an issue with working while pregnant. At Dow, everyone should be safe and working in a safe manor, period. I did see a Dow physician to discuss working with chemicals while pregnant and got some good information. I had a list of all the chemicals that I thought I would work with during this time and they looked up the specific knowledge about pregnancy related to these chemicals. Not surprisingly there wasn't much published info on some and this is because of the 95,000+ chemicals listed, only about 5,000 have been tested. We use personal protective equipment and work in hoods, etc. Again, the safety is the same whether pregnant or not. If this person works as a postdoc at a university and is pregnant I would suggest she pursue this safety on her own. Universities aren't known for their great lab safety programs.

When interviewing, she doesn't need to nor should she disclose information about wanting children. She shouldn't even disclose that she is married. It is against the law for the employer to ask, but I'm sure the ring is the outward sign that she is. I would be surprised if the employer cared about the marital status though. They may be more interested to find out about the husband and potentially getting two folks to employ.

Finally, has she thought about a postdoc and then having a child between the postdoc and permanent position? This might allow her time off without feeling guilty about leaving projects/employers with a gap of workers. Just a thought.

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I did not do a post-doc either. Although in today's job market, they are a highly desirable and often a required experience. She might consider trying to secure a industrial position without a post-doc as this might allow her to 'pull' her husband in to her employee a couple years down the road. If she does pursue the post-doc, I would say that she doesn't necessarily need to leave the lab if she becomes pregnant. That would be her personal choice and in fact at Lilly, our female scientists often stay in the lab throughout their pregnancy. In an industrial setting, the upmost precautions are taken in an organic lab to ensure that the hoods have strong air flow and she could take respirator training as a further precaution. And she would never be ask to use a chemical she was not comfortable using. All that being said, since the post-doc position are only about 18 months, perhaps the best timing may be after the post-doc and once she secures full-time employment. Better benefits! I can personally vouch for the joys of starting motherhood after age 30...

Dawn

I received my Ph.D. in chemistry in 1987, after which I worked in industry for 7.5 years and decided that 'that' life was not for me. I wanted to DO something for others, I was sick of the politics and very sick of the 50-70 hr. work week. Sound familiar to either of you? I then landed a position at a university and worked there as an assistant prof. of chemistry for 4 years. My scholarly activity was in science education which allowed me to go into the community a lot, working with teachers and doing demonstrations for entire schools. I loved that aspect of my job as well as teaching. However, after four years, I came up for mid-tenure review and was blown away by some very sticky politics from my peers. I decided to leave, again. I am currently on a leave of absence from the university until May.

While I have truly enjoyed my 7 months off (I have two children as well as a husband who works in industry) I am trying to decide what to do with my life/career. I can't help but wonder if there are others out there who find themselves in similar transitional periods? Are there options for non-traditional careers? Are women (and men) having the same trouble as I have had making choices and 'dealing' with politics? Is there a way we can counsel young people just getting their Ph.D.s? Is there a book of stories about people who made changes in careers? Can we counsel people on how to deal with the never ending 'politics' inherent in any position? Are there questions people can ask when interviewing to help probe how people get along? At this point, I've considered a variety of jobs that would not even use my science background and I think that is a waste.

Just thought I'd pose a few of my questions and see if you have any insight or knowledge of others in this situation. Thanks for your time in reading this.

The questions you ask are definitely ones that we have heard from other professionals and are ourselves asking as well. In fact, one of the goals for my subcommittee is to research alternative career paths for chemists; with the intent of providing information through our newsletter, our website and seminars being offered at national meetings. While this is a relatively new project for us, we did feature an excellent speaker at one of our recent seminars who spoke on Women Chemists in Chemical Sales. This job often comes with beneficial perks such as setting your own hours, working out of the house, a good bonus system, etc. The demand is high right now as well. This is one alternative pathway. I am sure our speaker would be happy to hear from you, if you are interested in this line of work. I will forward you her contact information soon.

We are pursuing other alternatives as well, some of which may be in industry but are non-traditional within that realm. For example, one PhD chemist at my company is working in the finance department right now, handling funding for major projects. Her chemical knowledge is used to ensure that all aspects of the project are being adequately covered and that funding is not cut by someone who wouldn't realize the importance or understand perhaps pieces of the project. Another high-demand area right now is for experienced scientists to audit and certify various laboratories and chemical plants. With the big boom of far-reaching quality standards such as ISO and AALA, audit companies are searching for qualified individuals who have the chemical knowledge required to assess the quality or safety needs of a variety of processes. These jobs typically allow you to live wherever you want, schedule audits according to your timeframe and preferred locals and pay very well. However they often involve extensive traveling.

Question:
I received the WCC newsletter which prompted me to check out the website. I am young and still trying to figure out exactly what I want to do. I have been thinking that I would like to work for a pharmaceutical company. I currently have a BA and have spent the last two years gathering different types of experience. I worked in a QA dept for a cosmetics company and currently am working as a research assistant. Will it be very difficult to get my foot in the door?

Answer:
I believe that gathering different types of experience is always good. In general, the types of things that will give you a leg up on the competition so to speak are demonstrated communication skills (both speaking and writing), proven leadership experience (either at work or in outside organizations), a broad knowledge of the business, etc. In general, your scientific skills will be taken for granted based on your educational and work credentials, so new employers will be looking for those "extras" that make a superb employee. You should always research the company and industry before applying for work, in order to tailor your application. As far as getting your foot in the door, that is exactly what you need to do. Most large pharmaceutical companies will have many opportunities for transferring to different departments, locations, etc. over time. Often taking a less than dream job may yield further opportunities down the line. However, I feel it is important to enjoy each job that you take as well. Of course, having contacts and applying through the right avenues is the best way to get your foot in the door. Registering with the ACS employment database is a good start. Using your contacts through the University or professional organizations to find contacts within a company is another good thing to do. Then not only do you apply through the company's HR department, but you can also send a personalized letter to a contact farther within the given organization.

Returning to Chemistry?
Q: Dear Arlene:
I came across your background online on the Women in Chemistry site. I was wondering if you could advise me on returning to the Chemistry line of work. I am now based in India (since the start of this year) and am not gaining too much career satisfaction in the line of work I am doing now (technical recruitment). I always had an interest in Analytical Chem though. My grades were As in that area too. I have attached my resume for your perusal. Pls advise.
Warm regards, R.

A.: Dear R.:
Thanks for visiting the Women Chemists web site.
Analytical chemistry is a booming field and can only grow. The major growth is due to environmental samples. It is really important to have up-to-date skills and chromatography is the area of major job openings. My suggestion would be to invest in a good short course. The combination of your computer skills with a quick refresher in the tools should make it easy to shift to an interesting position. Another approach would be to associate with a temporary service. As you know, lots of companies are hiring professionals through temporary services and then offering permanent positions later. It is a newer trend in chemistry, and is now very common in the northeast US and Texas. Those geographic areas are very strong for analytical hiring.
Good luck with your efforts! Arlene

Not-for-profit
Q: Dear Dr. Arlene:
I found your name and email address from the WCC "on-line" Mentoring program. Currently, I am negotiating for a staff research position with a not-for-profit research organization. I would greatly appreciate you if you could give me advice on how to negotiate for this position.
Many thanks.
D., Ph.D. chemist

A: Dear Dr. D.:
Great question! There are some similarities in position negotiation regardless of the type of potential employer. Time spent preparing for negotiation has a huge potential payback, and women have a strong tradition of avoiding serious negotiation. Some studies say that negotiation is the employment step that causes the largest portion of the salary differential between men and women.

1) Do any research you can on pay for comparable jobs. If you are replacing some one, find out what they were paid. Call folks at similar organizations.
Check the national statistics. Take all the numbers with you into any session where you may find yourself negotiating.
2) Decide before you go in if you want the position at whatever cost, or if you are willing to walk. Your ability to negotiate depends upon your ability to walk away.
3) Get any information you can about the organization. Depending upon how the organization is chartered, you may be able to get access to by-laws and/or annual financial reports. The big thing to look for is the shut down strategy. Most not-for-profits require assets to pass to a similar group, and employment contracts are not always addressed. Ask about whether polices exist that guarantee a specific notice for dismissal.
4) Not-for-profit organizations can have more flexibility in compensation structure. Not necessary bigger pots of money, but they may be able to work with you. For example, will you be responsible for bringing in grants? Can you get an incentive structure involving pay increases for meeting a particular grant income level? Or perhaps agreement in advance to fund a support position when you bring in a million a year?

Followup Q:
Dear Arlene:
I would like to ask specific questions which are as follows:
1. The position was initially offered for a six month position, from the first-step-negotiation, I now got a one year position. Is there a room for further negotiation?
2. -will you be responsible for bringing in grants?
Yes. I must have to bring in grants in the expected time frame. And my salary will be paid by my grants only, it means: no grants no salary. My question now is how to negotiate for getting "something" to start?
Many thanks, D.

A: Dear D.:
More good questions!
It sounds like they have limited funds at the moment related to specific grant, and a year may be the best you can do. What resources will you have available for the work? If they have technicians, you want appropriate technician time. You probably want access to the clerical folks for help with your proposals (at least duplicating and sending). You may or may not be able to get control of any actual budget funds at this. There are probably some funds in the current grant, but they
probably won't put you in charge of those.
This kind of place can be fun, because each new proposal you send off is a new chance to negotiate and that may be the time to add staff and computer hardware.
Good luck! Arlene

General Mentoring Info	WCC Mentoring Articles	"On-line" Mentoring Q&A
MentorNet at San Jose State University	Wall Street Journal Article	Career Chat	Non-traditional careers and transition periods
Cook Ross, mentoring consulting firm	Successful Women Chemists Articles from WCC Newsletters	Starting a career
ACS Office of Minority Affairs, contact Stephanie Butler	Mentoring: The Buzzword for the 90's (or How Do I Find One?) From a WCC newsletter	Returning to Chemistry?
			Not-for-profit

Women Chemists Committee

WCC "on-line" Mentoring

FAQS from On-line Mentoring